No trailhead parking

General Palm Springs area.

Re: No trailhead parking

Postby Wildhorse » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:30 am

My understanding is that Palm Springs owns the trailheads and BLM owns the trails. Looking at the city website, I think the city is using the county order to close the “trails” and parking lots. I have seen similar actions in LA County, where trails can be very crowded.

BTW, the Desert Sun says the sheriff of RivCo posted a YouTube video saying the that it will not be enforcing the face mask order. It is way too dangerous to enforce. The health department has lost its mind.

As an aside, I don’t know whether wearing a face mask is safe for the wearer. The problem seems to be that viruses get sucked in through and around the edges of the mask and become trapped. Once trapped, the have a greater chance of getting into the mouth or nose. They can act like funnels it seems. Maybe if we all wore them, the risk would decrease modestly, but no one knows for sure.

N95 masks work better, but we can’t wear them and they are not perfect anyway.

Insanity will kill more people than the virus.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby Florian » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:43 am

The city says the trail closed signs were the result of a "miscommunication" and that trails are still open. The signs will be removed today. No-parking will still be enforced at trailheads however.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby cynthia23 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:49 pm

I posted something similar in Perry's thread, but I'll repeat it: the reason Riverside Co. is now trying to discourage hiking and jogging and encouraging mask wearing outside is 1. in the last two weeks, a couple of studies have come out that show clear evidence of aerosolized transmission from asymptomatic people. that means transmission from seemingly well people who are merely exhaling, especially 'forceful exhalations', the kind you get from people hiking. 2. Also in the last few weeks, clear evidence that between 25 and 50 percent of people who test positive for the virus are completely asymptomatic, and of course most have no idea they have it and transmitting. 3. MIT professor who specializes in movement mechanics of viruses says that under certain conditions, the particles can drift up to twenty six feet--the 'six foot' rule is somewhat imaginary. 4. COVID particles are ten times 'stickier' than SARS particles, meaning it takes many fewer of them to begin an infection. 5. severe illness in young and healthy people and old and unhealthy people who stay completely asymptomatic even though infected, suggests some individuals may randomly have genetic vulnerabilities that put them at special risk.

All of these factors taken together have made me decide to avoid ALL trails for the duration and stick to running in a deserted stretch of desert near my house. An illness that puts twenty percent of people in the hospital in the month and probably leaves permanent lung damage, is not one I care to risk.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby Wildhorse » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:12 pm

I am careful like you Cynthia.

For anyone who wants to read a good essay discussing the safe physical distance, NPR has a good article.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... gh-the-air

Science magazine is another interesting source, if you have a few days you need to fill. And then one can also read articles in the cochrane library.

Or one can just go hike, taking a chance, but likely one that is very small, unless one is hiking with an infected person.

As for me, I am biking. Faster than a speeding droplet.

Btw, I saw an article in Science discusses the irrational fever spreading among public health officials like a virus.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby cynthia23 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:25 pm

The irrationality in public officials was their lengthy delay in beginning the lockdown, even in California. They should have instituted a total lockdown and mandatory mask wearing much earlier. Had they done by February 28th so we'd be over the curve and looking at the end zone. Instead we face months of this. By the end of February It was clear to me and any person who was reading the major newspapers that we needed to immediately close schools and institute a total lockdown. In fact I wrote the school superintendent every day pleading with her to close the schools. The cowardly delay by public officials only increased the growth rate and the length of time we'll have to lockdown. It was like our response to climate change--fear of harming business interests even when the science is clear and delaying will harm business much more severely in the long term.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby SoCalJim » Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:54 pm

I'm a retired RN, almost 30 years pediatric ICU and emergency, so quite familiar with isolation standards. I believe the "6 foot rule" derives from very old studies to determine how far it is likely that a respiratory (airborne, droplet) microbe (usually virus or bacteria) would be infectious indoors. Those studies would have been based upon upper respiratory infections (common cold, which includes a few less serious coronaviruses), influenza, pertussis, etc. that have been known for decades, at least. The six foot rule becomes anyone's guess outdoors because it would then involve many more factors, not least of which is how strongly is the wind blowing and in which direction. Part of what determines the risk of infection is the concentration of virus in a given space. If a symptomatic person who is presumptively positive with COVID-19 coughs or sneezes in my face (as happened to me many times with kids in the ED, tho not with the current pandemic), I'd be very concerned. If I'm outdoors walking in the near vicinity of other people, I have a very low level of concern because even an asymptomatic infected person is probably emitting a certain amount of virus with each breath, but it's not concentrated or aimed at my face. One way to think about airborne transmission is to picture how smoke behaves when it's exhaled outdoors. It's not a completely accurate comparison since a lungful of smoke tends to be exhaled with some force as opposed to regular breathing, but it gives you an idea. What I'm getting at is that even a sick person's exhaled virus would dissipate in the air fairly quickly so that the chance of someone inhaling a big breath full of virus outdoors is pretty damn low. Another way to look at it: we all know that people, kids and adults, pee in pools and the ocean, but it becomes diluted pretty fast. That knowledge doesn't keep most people out of the water. And yeah, pee in a swimming pool isn't the same health risk as coronavirus.

BTW, went grocery shopping for the first time in about 10 days. I'd estimate that about 90% of people were wearing a face covering in the stores. I had originally thought that the recommendation/mandate to wear a mask in stores was overkill, but when I heard some experts say that it may help block some virus exhaled by infected people (asymptomatic or not) and might help slightly to prevent inhaling virus, I thought, okay, that sounds reasonable. Almost everyone not wearing a face covering today was well under 50. To anyone not following the current CDC recommendation to do so, you're either uninformed, selfish, or naive in believing you won't get sick.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby Wildhorse » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:24 pm

A Desert Sun article today says that RivCo ICU will likely be full next week. That is worse than New York or LA by far, it seems. Compliance with social distancing rules is estimated to be only 30% in RivCo, while much higher in other places. These factors indicate that the lockdown is failing in RivCo. The harsh threats and draconian measures may result from county health and Palm Springs desperation. But everyone knows the cops are scared and cannot carry out the threats anyway. And the latest measures are too weak to solve the problem. Hopefully the estimates are wrong.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby Wildhorse » Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:51 pm

LA County says its draconian measures are working, but they need to become even more severe. The health director added a requirement today to require people working and visiting essential businesses mask up. The effect of that is expected to be insignificant, so additional measures are coming. She did not say what they would be. The essential businesses and government activities are the big hole in the current measures. Is she considering shutting down everything? (Hikers are not the problem.) Walking on streets is only a small issue. The health departments appear to have unrealistic expectations.

RivCo may lead LACo. It has so far. But what has it done that Wuhan did not do? The answer is really scary. Europe is succeeding it seems with much the same as us. Sweden and Iceland with less.

The governor seems to recognize that social distancing measures have limits, and that hospital beds are not the only thing vital that we can run out of. The health directors seem to not realize that.
Last edited by Wildhorse on Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby Ed » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:28 am

Success has to be judged relative to population. The UK has about half the deaths of the US with about one fifth of the population. Though perhaps the US is too large geographically to make international comparisons with smaller countries meaningful.
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Re: No trailhead parking

Postby Wildhorse » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:06 am

Ed, I agree death rates matter. LA Health made the remarkable statement recently that we should not look at them to judge how we are doing. Remarkable coldness. But what she meant was that they are a lagging measure. The goal of health departments (she said it herself) appears to be keeping hospital beds and ventilators available, which is a narrow goal. So many other things matter too. And suffering and death not directly caused by Covid, but by the broad pandemic effects and the adverse effects of lockdowns matter too.
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