22,000 ft elevation gain (2 c2c's)

General Palm Springs area.

Postby zippetydude » Wed May 02, 2007 3:02 pm

I've heard there are two essential ingredients for life on earth: water and salt.

Wrong.

They left out malt. And I, for one, can get sufficient water through my malt intake to survive quite handily.

Life's so simple.

z
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A Long Post....

Postby Perry » Wed May 02, 2007 10:22 pm

My recipe is based on exercise physiology and personal experience. It's not very unique and is kind of similar to the high-end drinks like Cytomax and GU20, except with more sodium and potassium and the absence of flavors and other additional ingredients with questionable marketing claims. It's well-proven that maltodextrin with a little fructose is the best carbohydrate combo. If you've never tried this, well it's an easy way to do Skyline faster without having to train more (but not a substitute for training). The primary electrolytes lost in sweat are sodium and chloride (salt) and a little potassium. Those other things like magnesium and the whole periodic table of elements....that generally only applies to *very* long workouts, such as a 100-mile run, or a multi-day adventure.

Anyhow here's my recipe:

1 cup maltodextrin (from brew supply)
1/4 cup fructose (from bulk health food section at store)
1 & 1/2 tsp salt
1/2 tsp salt substitute (potassium chloride, it's near the salt in the grocery store)
Mix to make 1 gallon.

For hot weather, it's a good idea to slightly reduce the maltodextrin and fructose and slightly increase the salt. For cold weather, or if you don't lose very much salt in your sweat due to genetics, you could further reduce the salt to 1 tsp or 1/2 tsp. Likewise, the potassium may not be necessary in cold weather. I think one or two other people on Summitpost tried my recipe and really liked the results. I probably lose more sodium than most people, so I mix my drinks salty.

In theory you could substitute some of the salt with baking soda and that might alter ph enough to slightly increase fat-burning and spare glycogen. That's only theoretical. I don't know if that's enough to make any difference. Some sports drinks include sodium citrate or sodium phosphate as "lactic acid buffers" but that's an oversimplified marketing claim. However, it might serve the former purpose. One way to research would be to have subjects run on a treadmill, measure respiratory exchange ratios, but also account for the additional CO2 production from the baking soda, then calculate fat/carbo burning... Thoughts?
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Postby magikwalt » Wed May 02, 2007 10:36 pm

First thank for the recipe. I'm assuming that you don't need carb snacks with the additions to the water so that simplifies the thought process a little further. It shouldn't take much math to figure out how many carbs you will be able to absorb over a given time period and then simply adjust the sugars to the amount of water.

Do you have any problems with getting the mixture to blend or disolve?
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Postby Mountaingoat » Wed May 02, 2007 10:54 pm

2 years ago just before turning 50 Iwanted to do rim to rim and back(Grand Canyon).
Started from the north rim at 2:00 AM and returned back to my camp site at 6:00 PM. 21000 feet gain and loss of elevation, 42 miles.
Anyhow I know it's kind of far from the San Jac. area but I thought it was a good challenge and matches the elevation req. on the post.


Happy hiking,
Berne Mettenleiter
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Postby Perry » Wed May 02, 2007 11:33 pm

Oh yeah, that's what the post was originally about. :D

I gotta shake it good with that maltodextrin. It's very powdery. I add water first, then everything else, shake, add the rest of the water, then let it settle for awhile.

Not dealing with Gu's, thermotabs, or whatever is easier on the mind but more weight to carry if you don't have water sources.
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Postby Ellen » Thu May 03, 2007 10:59 am

Howdy Perry :D

I agree with trying to simplify your running/hiking/triathlon nutrition plan as much as possible. Unlike Z-dude and Alan, I'm not capable of doing complex math or physics computations in my head while climbing Skyline :oops: I will say that music like the William Tell Overture or Flight of the Valkyrie play in my head on the final switchbacks before the notch :lol:

I look forward to trying your recipe 8)

FYI, here's some exercise physiology background on the benefits of consuming mutliple carbohydrate sources (such as maltodextrin and fructose) during exercise:

During moderate intensity exercise, the maximum rate of exogenous carbohydrate oxidation from a single carbohydrate source such as glucose is about 1 gram per minute. When a mixture of glucose and sucrose or a mixture of glucose and fructose is ingested at a rate of 1.8 grams per minute, the rate of exogenous carbohydrate oxidation can reach 1.3 grams per minute. A mixture of two carbohydrate sources increases exogenous carbohydrate oxidation by about 20 to 55 percent compared to the ingestion of an isocaloric amount of glucose. When glucose, fructose and sucrose are ingested together during exercise at a rate of 2.4 grams per minute, the rate of exogenous carbohydrate oxidation can reach 1.7 grams per minute. A mixture of three carbohydrate sources increases exogenous carbohydrate oxidation by about 44 percent compared to an isocaloric amount of glucose (Jentjens RL, Achten J, Jeukendrup AE. High oxidation rates from combined carbohydrates ingested during exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004;36:1551-1558.)

Miles of smiles,
Ellen
Last edited by Ellen on Thu May 03, 2007 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby zippetydude » Thu May 03, 2007 12:49 pm

Perry had mentioned that citric acid slows absorption. Do studies show this for the general population, and if so, is it possible to estimate the negative effect in grams/minute?

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Postby zippetydude » Thu May 03, 2007 10:29 pm

Perry, I think I'll give your recipe a try. You said it's a little saltier than sports drinks in general. Would you say it tastes good?

By the way, I tried out that coconut water. I'd rather suck the water out of the gutter in front of the museum. Sorry, but that stuff's nasty.

Eech. Tastes like pus.

No offense, you proponents of coconut water. You're just tougher than me.

z
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Pacifico - the ultimate recovery drink?

Postby bcox » Fri May 04, 2007 10:48 pm

The posts on nutrition are very detailed, which is why I found it odd that there was little mention of the value of "fueling" after a big effort. A cold Pacifico and big plate of food are hard to beat on the satisfaction scale but might not be the best option when considering how quickly one recovers for the next effort. I'd be curious to hear what some of you are doing. My best bet for training runs/rides ending at the house is a blender of chocolate milk with a banana within 15 minutes of finishing up. Otherwise I've been using Recoverite from Hammer Nutrition and have been very happy with it to date.



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Postby zippetydude » Sun May 06, 2007 4:09 pm

He lives!

Hi bcox. Haven't heard from you in a while! How goes it?

As you know, I'm with you on the chocolate milk. Another really tasty and immediately available refueling source I'm using now is a couple of Accelgel chocolate gels right after any effort. They taste great and I can keep a few in my car (unlike chocolate milk) to eat right afterward.

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